Donald, I found your mail in the Trash and have replied to you. I am very careless as regards mail, especially when I had so much after coming back from Donegal. I am inclined to scan them very quickly and delete. I don't usually get anything important so tend to get careless when reading over the mail. Anyhow, I have replied and many thanks for the information. I appreciate it. Donald, everyone will now be wondering what we are on about.!!!!!!

Do any of the forumers recall the Italians who were prisoners of war at Smithfield market in the late 40's , they played football against local teams,and usually beat them ,stretch the old minds a bit ,I am not the only one to recall this....Frank

Frank
I,m no expert in war history but am almost sure that Italy changed sides and fought on the side of the allies in the "second half" of the war. I do remember in Hillhall beside Orr,s Lane where Hillhall Primary school was later built concrete bases of Nissan huts which were supposedly remnants of a German POW camp.
donald

On 10 July 1943, a combined force of American and British Commonwealth troops invaded Sicily in Operation Husky. German generals again took the lead in the defence and, although they lost the island after weeks of bitter fights, they succeeded in ferrying large numbers of German and Italian forces safely off Sicily to the Italian mainland. On 19 July, an Allied air raid on Rome destroyed both military and collateral civil installations. With these two events, popular support for the war diminished in Italy.

On 25 July, the Grand Council of Fascism ousted Italian dictator Benito Mussolini and a new Italian government, led by General Pietro Badoglio and King Victor Emmanuel III, took over in Italy. The new Italian government immediately began secret negotiations with the Allies to end the fighting and to come over to the Allied side. On 3 September, a secret armistice was signed with the Allies at Fairfield Camp in Sicily. The armistice was announced on 8 September. By then, the Allies were on the Italian mainland.

On 3 September, British troops crossed the short distance from Sicily to the 'toe' of Italy in Operation Baytown. Two more Allied landings took place on 9 September at Salerno (Operation Avalanche) and at Taranto (Operation Slapstick). The Italian surrender meant that the Allied landings at Taranto took place unopposed, with the troops simply disembarking from warships at the docks rather than assaulting the coastline.

German troops, once they had discovered that the Italians had signed an armistice, moved quickly to disarm the Italian forces and to take over critical defensive positions (Operation Achse). These included Italian-occupied south-eastern France and the Italian-controlled areas in the Balkans. Only in Sardinia, Corse and in part of Apulia and Calabria italian troops were able to hold their positions until the arrival of allied forces. In the area of Rome only one infantry division, Granatieri di Sardegna, and some small armoured units fought with commitment but by September 11 they were overwhelmed by superior german forces.

As Donald's piece here shows, you can learn a lot via the internet. I didn't know any of that; nor did I know about the football matches; but, as I wrote here several times, I Do know there were prisoners behind that big wall facing the Wee Hall in Linenhall Street, when I was five or six or seven.
As Maurice Chevalier said in Gigi,"Ah, yes, I remember it well".

Frank. Dappler, I remember German POWs unloading coal in the railway yard of the Antrim Road and also loadiing army coal trucks in a yard off Quay steet, I can't remember any eyties (Italians). We used to try and trade cigarettes for German army or Luftwaffe badges. I had a couple with the swastika symbol on them untill my aunt found them and threw them in the fire. I guess it was because my uncle had been killed in the Bismarck action a couple of years previous. I do not remember any POWs in the markets and I was round there often enough on my Post Office bike,maybe my old workmate Brendan does.? I also ran into a working party of German POWs once in Drumbo but when I tried to approach them again to try and trade,the British Army guards chased me off. Mauri

i remember millars in grand st if only for the quote"sorry no fish"can anyone remember the paintings in whitcrofts chemist in castle st. i think one of them was a painting of alice morgans house on the corner of barnsleys row.i wonder what happened to them.i don t think whitcrofts chemist is still there, may be wrong. aidso.

I remember here reading some time ago about " spit in the pan " but never knew what it meant, can anyone here help?
My memories of Millers chip shop are the son in law Duncan? who was manager there, he lived in Lawnbrook Drive, worked in Governor Foundry Belfast as a lorry driver.He was an ardent Lambeg drummer around the " Twelfth "
donald

No-one has ever replied that there were prisoners behind that big wall, so maybe I was told that by grownups. But I DO have a memory of a man handing me money through big metal gates at the Smithfield end of Linenhall Street. The gates were locked, and I think I ran an errand for him.Fags, sweets?

I remember German POWs there they used to show us photos of thier families and in thier uniforms

Dabbler,that big wall sheltered the Corn Market,I know it was an Army Service Corps depot during the war,A soldier from there Tom Bridge from Dudley,a motor mechanic, married a relative of mine Bridie Mc Bain they went to England after the war and lived in Cradley Heath Staffordshire.I visited them there in 1992,but they have now passed on.....Frank

Aidso, Whitcrofts Chemist closed down years ago, unfortunately.

Mr Whitcroft was a great wee man as well as a family pharmacist. When my 4 children were young I was in Whitcrofts every week I'm sure. Mr Whitcroft always remembered what cough mixture or tonic I had been using previously and would ask, "Has the child improved"? or "Is the child better now". He was a very genuine person and we young mothers relied on his knowledge a lot. He took time to discuss any minor medical problems we were worried about and gave advice readily.

It was not unknown for him to deliver a box of pills or medicine on his bicycle if they were out of stock when people called. Sometimes this would be after 6 pm.

He never forgot to ask about Dominic or my mother when I was in the shop.

I suppose Mr Whitcroft is no longer with us but I'm sure he's in heaven.

I remember Whitcrofts with great affection and nostalgia .

My memories of Millers chip shop are the son in law Duncan? who was manager there, he lived in Lawnbrook Drive, worked in Governor Foundry Belfast as a lorry driver.He was an ardent Lambeg drummer around the " Twelfth "
donald[/quote]


Donald,

Yes Donald, Duncan the son-in-law, a B-Special, often came in to the chip shop in his uniform, gun & all. No wonder there was no "carry-on" in Millars.

Barney and Frank
Thank you both for info about the secrets of the depot behind that big wall. I remember it in bits. That is, I remember the story of doing the 'messages', and then I remember it years later, when it appears in my mind as something approaching a Corn Market.
Joe

Talking about German prisoners, I remember my Father calling in to our house in East Down View with a German prisoner on his way either to or from Waringstown.

Later he gave me a present of a ship-in-a-bottle made by a German prisoner. It was made from a large sauce bottle & pieces of wood, bits of pebbles, plaster & paint. A quay scene of little houses with red roofs & a lighthouse, alongside which is a flat boat, with sails, in the water.

I still have it here with me & I marvel at the skill needed to make this out of practically nothing, while in prison. Unfortunately the sails are gone, with us fiddling with them when the matchstick holding them up collapsed & we tried to fix it with no luck.

There were other mementos in our house, in Lisburn, of decorated cigarette cases made from Mess tins. Very skilful boys those Germans.

Pat

Memories, Memories.....

Mr.Whitcroft, a lovely wee man. When my second son was 18 we bought, as a birthday present for him, Mrs. Whitcroft's Morris Minor, a little green car with 4 doors, in perfect condition, from Mr. Whitcroft.

Joe drove it from Lisburn to Limerick, where we lived then & a year later, when we moved to Dublin, he sold it to a dealer on the Dublin Rd. Limerick as he bought another car.

A sale we regret, as the Morris Minor became a valuable item of vintage later & we wonder who was lucky enough to purchase our one, which we should have had remodelled & kept, even tho' we had no room for it in the drive of the new house, the only reason we did sell it at the time.

I am sure it is still driving at vintage show as it was a great little car.


Pat

Pat
Are you not confusing Waringstown with Waringsfield outside Moira? There was a military hospital there up until the 60s. Now it is an housing estate and a senior citizens residence.
donald

Donald,


You are right as usual, was'nt sure if it was Waringsfield or Waringstown. Senior moment. Not surprisig these days.

Pat

I remember on a Sunday afternoon my mother taking me to visit my father in Waringsfield Hospital where he spent some time.

I always remember the signature tune for the programme "Down your Way" playing on the radio as we either entered or left the hospital. Funny how melodies stay in your head and remind you of where you were on certain occasions. That particular tune will always remind me of Waringsfield Hospital.

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
yer givin yer age away here Ann

One signature tune I remember often & like is the one played for Desert island Discs "Sleepy Lagoon"

" A tropical moon, a sleepy lagoon & you"


Pat

one of the best chippers in Lisburn was Montgomerys in Castle Street im sure many will remember them for thier ice cream as well

Barney, once again, I agree. Whilst it was a bit further than Ginesis, I did buy both fish'n'chips and ice cream there, and they were (almost) as good as the Italians. In fact, the Ice cream was as tasty as Rossi's.

I remember, during the height of the Troubles, taking Mark, my grandson, into Montgomery's to have some ice cream. He was only about 3 years old.

We sat down at one of the little tables and ordered our ice cream. The waitress brought these shortly and we had just begun to enjoy them when I noticed a big van parked right outside the shop.

I grabbed Mark from his seat and trailed him out of the shop as quickly as I could. I ran, Mark in my arms, down Castle Street until I was far away from what I had imagined was a van containing a bomb.

For those of you who don't know, during the Troubles vehicles were not allowed to be parked on the streets, never mind right outside a shop.

In fact, the police did come and clear the area, but I was already away. It turned out some poor eejit from England had parked the van unknowingly. I'm sure he got a rollicking from the police.

I can laugh about it now but I never forget the fear that day, imagining the van blowing up and Mark and me in the middle of it.

I remember Mr and Mrs Forte very well,lovely people.Lena was my girlfriend.They also had two other siblings Joe and Francis

Harry ,your little item on Lisburn Italians caused me to go back through thread to the Emails of last year. It also made me recall a joke which was around in the mid forties."It was alleged that in 1943 a guy raced into a crowded bar in Lisburn, shouting "The Royal Ulster Rifles Have just entered Rome!" A voice piped up from amongst the crowd "did they get him". I dont think he meant Mussollini... ..Dont forget the Fusco"s...Frank

I remember Tommy Lewis, not always a nice man, laughing because one of the Fuscos was threatened with a woooden pistol, and forced to hand over money. Tommy could be an unpleasant individual, and I recall thinking that this was nothing to laugh about. That was in the fifties.

I have come across a memorial card in memory of Franesco Ginesi who died on 6th Feb 1964, if anyone is interested as it contains a photo of him.

I was born at the end of 1942 and remember P O W's in the Smithfield Market.On reflection I expect they were there probably in 46/47 or I doubt I would have remembered them.
I would be very interested to hear how long they were imprisoned there.

I mentioned it here before , where Hillhall school stands or once stood I remember in the late 40s the foundations of Nissan huts where it was said German POW s were kept and they were allowed to work for local businesses and farmers
donald

there was also a John fusco

Ann and Donald

Hmm......

Beano