Good evening everyone. Does anyone recall the Ragity Bap school that was on the Longstone? My mum used to mention it now and again. But as usual times goes by and when they are not around anymore you wish you had ask more questions.

Thanks
Sarah

Sarah
there is a photo in the gallery of the Raggety Bap. Go to gallery at the top of the page, then old Lisburn, and scroll right to the bottom. I think there may be a thread in here somewhere as well, I will try to locate it.

Thanks etcetera will have a look. Cool user name by the way.

Sarah

Hello Sarah, I remember the Raggety Bap on Longstone Street. I think today there is a Baptist Church built on the site, I am not sure. It was called the Raggety Bap as the poorer children of the town went there and were given a free bap every day. My own Mother used to talk about it, I don't know if she was a pupil or not but I do know she went to Hilden School as a 'part-timer', one day at school and the next day working in the Mill. Children today don't know how well off they are. But are they any happier?

Hi Aldene
The Raggety Bap was on the right side of the road to Holy Trinity Graveyard. The Baptist church is further up Longstone street.
Jim

Certaintly they are much happier,, Aldene, not having to get out of bed in the Wintertime & run to work in all weathers, (some in bare feet) have to work hard, get half hour for a "lunch" then work hard again until quitting time, for very little money & on very little food. Anything would make your happier than that lifestyle.

Hope someone makes a film someday about the children in Mills & the after effects on their lives. Even I have a indignation in me about my forbearers & the tales I heard of child abuse & little Hitlers. Hypocrisy of the first order.! These employers were supposedly the pillars of society in Lisburn, with monuments built in their honour. Where are the monuments to the children who built their Empire.!

Pat

Jim
Cathal O`Byrne, in his book " As I roved out " mentioned a " Raggerty school". The term Raggerty originated from a charitable institution or person who founded schools for poor people. I also remember hearing or reading about Lisburn,s Raggerty bap being called so because the pupils got a free bap each morning.
Pat
I think you are being unfair about some of the industrialists "exploiting " children. The Barbour family, one of the largest in the area provided housing, schools, work and recreation facilities for their workers and families.Naturally they made a profit but the workers also benefited. How many people from all parts of Ireland ( can be followed in the 1911 census ) came to the Lisburn area to find work as they were unable to exist in their place of birth. For example they provided schools before the Government introduced compulsory education. We got a free third or a pint of milk each day, school books were also provided, trips to Newcastle in the summer and Xmas concerts with tea and buns in the EMB. Ask any schoolteacher today if all his pupils have breakfast before coming to school.

Pat,
The monuments of the children who worked in factories are non other than ourselves, their descendants. Monuments of stone are frivolous. Hopefully our children will be our monuments.
Jimmy

Thanks Jimmy,

Never considered that fact, hope we do them justice.

Donald,

I concede all the points you make, remembering they came much later, when public opinion turned against child abuse in the workplace.

It does not alter the fact that it occured for years & was the cause of many deaths of young children, who were totally unsuited to the conditions of hard work with little nourishment or proper rest.

Does anything excuse child abuse either in the workplace or any other circumstance.?

Pat

Pat
Please bear in mind that the mill owners did not go around driving the children into the mills, it was the parents or guardians of these abused children who sent them into the mills under-age. You might say that their parents needed the money they earned, Why? To help feed the large families and here we are back again at responsibility, education and birth control!
donald

Aldene my mum went there but as I said she did not talk too much about it. And yes she too worked in the Mill.........bare feet and all. They all worked hard for our future. God bless them all.

Donald,


So the mill owners did everyone a great favour by accepting child labour.? Did they let children attend full time at Hilden shool if they wanted, or had they to work half the time in the Mill to be accepted as a pupil?

Like today, not everyone had large families. Did the Mothers & Fathers think so little of their children that they drove them into the workplace.? Not for money as everyone got a piece of paper, instead of wages, to purchase goods in the employer's shop.

Nowadays the same thing is happening in India, Mexico, & the other countries, where child labour still exists, even tho' contraception is freely available.

Responsibility rests with the State, education & birth control was not provided for the poor. Now that it is, the work is not available, it is taken abroad for cheap labour & higher profits.

Pat

P.S. Note that these things are happening in countries where democracy is supposed to exist.?

PAT




.

Donald, I certainly agree with you about Barber being the best Labourlord. He was the only one who brought working and civil conditions to anywhere close to humane levels. He picked up the cheque for everything you apportioned to him,except the Newcastle trip. Sir William McIlroy sponsored it. The only bad thing about it was that it was only for the Micks. Thanks for the E.MAILS Donald. A laugh a minute. Brendan.

Brendan,

We'll accept the crumbs from the Master's table & be thankful.

Sir Willial Mc Ilroy provided the trip for the Micks because no one else invited them.

Pat.

Brendan
The yearly trip to Newcastle I was talking about was run by the EMB boys club which was mixed and paid for by the Barbours, It departed from the EMB, we got a bag of buns, sandwiches and a small mineral for the trip,then Sir Milnes daughter who was married to Cornell Smith and lived in Newcastle welcomed us, walked us around her grounds before we had lunch there in the outhouse. Lowroader can confirm that. For most of us it was the only outing we got. My brother and I were lucky as our great uncle Big Ned Watters from the Locks who was a bachelor and had a few bob took us to Omeath on the train once or twice a year.
donald

Donald the stores on the site are wonderful. You mentioned small mineral for a drink . Well today there would be litres of coke and all sorts. We are soo very lucky today. ........thanks.

Sarah

Donald,
Once again you are correct in your assumption that the Newcastle annual trip was organised from the EMB and was for any kid who used the hall during the year, nothing at all to do with religion.
It was nothing to do with the Boys Club.
I never went on any of these trips but always understood them to be financed by the Smith family in Newcastle the lady of the house being, I believe, a Barbour.

Why the story about "Micks" was introduced is beyond me and smells of a "victim of some conspiracy theory".

I think there is a distinct lack of knowledge of the system of "Trips to Newcastle, Bangor or Portrush".
These trips were organised by church Sunday Schools and you had to attend one of these to qualify for the trip. Many protestant children did not attend Sunday school and so did not go.
I attended Tullynacross Sunday School which was attached to Lambeg Parish Church.

To suggest that it was only RC children who did not qualify is totally wrong and borders on mischief making.

I have no idea whether or not RC children had trips organised by the chapel or whether there was a Sunday school run by the chapel, that is for those who should know to answer.

Sarah / Lowroader / Pat
Memories are made of this. If more energy had been put into joining forces and collectively striving for a better standard of living perhaps we would have achieved more. I mean not only in norniron but around the world. A strategy practised as far back as the Romans was = divide and conquer

Alexander Irvine in his book " The souls of poor folk" first published in 1921.
mentions the falling off in attendance at the Presbyterian Sunday school and an increase in attendance at the Methodist school each year beginning in November due to the fact that the Methodist church always gave a Christmas Soiree where hot coffee and buns were served, then in January they slunk back and rehabilitated themselves.

Donald

Hi Sarah, Like your own Mum, my Mother did not talk much about being a 'half-timer' from the age of 12. I know her family lived in Longstone Sreet, there were 9 children in the family so I suppose money was in short supply. My maternal Grandfather was a master Joiner in his day and was responsible for making the Grand Staircase in the Titanic. His name was Sam Crone, I expect Jim's late Father would have known the family.
But I digress, can you imagine sending a 12 year old child today to walk from Longstone Street to Hilden to work and school? Doesn't bear thinking about, does it? Thank God those days are long gone in our part of the world anyhow. But children are still being exploited in other countries, especially China. I once read a book 'Harry Woo', shocking true story, and since then I try to stay away from anything made in China, difficult though it is. Regards

Donald,

You are perfectly right as usual. Everyone's memories are not the same unfortunately, but they are only memories after all. A child's mind is very open & absorbs everything even tho' they do not understand it all.

We are in the here & now & thank God things have changed. For that we are truly thankful. We all made mistakes in judgements & must accept the fact, denial is hindrance to progress.

In these enlightened times we are all equal,can discuss our differences without rancour, accuse no one, remembering that if we do not, things could revert to the status quo.

BUT being human sometimes we forget.... Love to all, Pat
.

Dear Aldene,on the 20th November 1948,a Saturday,Iwas13yrs.old and workimg as a soap-boy in a Barbershop in Lisburn.As men were paid on Friday night,Barbershops were busy on Saturday,Razor-blades were not very good,and men came for a proper shave.A call came from the Lagan Valley Hospital to the shop,A body was at the morgue,which needed shaving for presenting to his family,as was the custom at that time.Frank being the only dispensible person in the shop was sent to the hospital.The corpse in question had a shooting accident,the usual thing, crawling through a hedge,mud lodged in the gun barrels, on sighting his quarry Bang! the barrels exploded,killing him .He was was clean and well bandaged when I dealt with him,and he looked great later. during my work I listened to the Wedding of the Princess Elizabeth of England to The Prince Philip of Greece on BBC.Radio.I received one Pound and a generous glass of Bushmills for my efforts.The pound went to my boss of course.The taste for Bushmills remains.No one thought it anything special at the time. Interesting times in the 40's....Frank

Frank, You have your dates mixed up, Princess Elizabeth and Prince Phillip were married in November 1947 not 48, I always remember as I was in South Africa at the time on HMS Nigeria. Just seems like yesteday.?? Mauri

Sarah, The proper name for the Raggety Bab was "Lisburn Free School". I used to go to the Sunday School there for a couple of years, I think in later years it was turned into a school for disabled or retarded children. Mauri

I remember the raggedy bap very well Mr Mayne was the head master then, i always got him mixed up with McMinn the school attendance officer a real B if ever there was one jumping on us for being absent from class

Hi Barney, "Mc Minn" There is a blast from the past he really put the fear of God in you, and I agree whole heartly in your discription of him, if he caught you mitching he pulled you back up to the school, I think even the teachers held him in contempt,
Regards Ted

he was a right ******* Ted he put Ronnie Watkins away and destroyed his young life as far as i can recall.
then there was Cruelty,who ever he was at that time ,it may have been McMINN HIMSELF,NOT SURE ABOUT THIS

Barney, Re Ronnie Watkins do you know anything of him ? its a long time from I saw him he use to hang around the bookies in Antrim St thats the last time I saw him, I use to deleiver fish to BJs next door and I was able to work him and odd fish supper and I think at that period he was dossing down in one of the old houses in Pump Lane, there was always something likeable about him,he didn't get to many breaks in life, I wonder is he still alive,
Regards Ted

Hi Barney, can you recall any names from your class/classes. Was there just one classroom for all the children??

Sarah

Im sure there was at least 5 classrooms at the boys school,masters were Ned McCavanna or McKAVANAGH bad B WITH THE CANE
Brendan Fitzpatrick,Headmaster was Beardy Fitzimmonds a sadist,Miss Oboyle,Miss Maniece,Mrs Smyth in later years there were a few other teachers Lewis is a name that i can remember Paddy ??,will run through classmates names later,trying to get Firefox going right here ok

Ted etc
Who remembers Father Macnamarra who came around and tested the Catholic kids on their knowledge of the scriptures? In Hilden school we envied the non Catholics as they had a day off. We were scrubbed, combed and dressed up for the occasion. Then he came in an old Ford car and went from room to room and us kids had to repeat like parrots the prayers and scriptures we had learned in the weeks before. ( Question = Who made the world? Answer = God made the world! )
donald