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Re: A case to be made for estrogenic drugs in PCa therapy choices (links too)

a study on Zolodex versus Stillboestrol.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1386272

A quote from previous message "Your cheapest drug is DES ($125-300 per year), others would be Ketoconazole, estradiol, emcyt, proscar, tamoxifen and some others that are useful in PCa." unquote.

Zoladex in Australia, 10.8mg $133 per annum

Re: A case to be made for estrogenic drugs in PCa therapy choices (links too)

Warwick,

Isn't that the subsidised cost of Zoladex to a Medicare patient?

When I asked my pharmacist what the normal retail pric was she told me it was over A$1,200 a shot - so a tad under A$5,000 per annum.

All the best

Terry in Australia

Re: A case to be made for estrogenic drugs in PCa therapy choices (links too)

Terry, yup it is the sudsidised price. so what.

It still will cost the user only $33 per 3 month shot.

and that folks is the bottom line regardless.

Re: A case to be made for estrogenic drugs in PCa therapy choices (links too)

Warwick pointed out all the negatives a case can be made against of our drug choices in PCa, the Journal of Urology article from 2003 I showed the link, says in general that 1-mg was found safe to use if you wanted to actually read this. Still some caution sure, choices of estrogenics exist with some minor differences to read about too. Talk to some people whom have done such is always a good idea or docs that have used such in some patients.

Hey, I hope you don't believe that Lupron and other LHRH are health food in comparison (lol). The bone density loss is a wonderful side effect, that long term use could lead to skelatal issues and of course memory loss and all the other wonders we know about. Not saying never use LHRH, I did my 2 yrs. of ADT3 combo....and having done both...know some huge differences. I have about zero side effects now, little bit of breast tenderness. We have alot of other drug choices in PCa, there is no one size fits all. Results is the key, I also got better results on $125 protocol over the $13000 protocol (ADT3).

Re: A case to be made for estrogenic drugs in PCa therapy choices (links too)

thanks Bob for your speedy reply, the "negatives" as you put it, are the flip side of the coin, when looking for a "drug of choice" I'm sure you would agree, one must be informed of ALL the consequences.

The cost to you of ADT3 does not thanfully apply here in Australia, Zoladex at $133 per annum is eminently affordable, in my own case I will only need a short term, max 12 months, on it.

When looking for a treatment it is well to compare as you have done, it was with curiousity that I looked for published evidence of any trials that did a comparison analysis between estrogenic and Zoladex, the link which I have previously posted, being informed is necessary.

Re: A case to be made for estrogenic drugs in PCa therapy choices (links too)

What a deal on LHRH, we Americans are literally raped by the drug companies when patents exist. Our prices on Leukine, Zometa, chemo's, LHRH's, casodex (cash-o-dex), and some other heavy duty combo protocols in therapies are just slightly being molested, no raped. (HA-Ha). Nobody seems to question it much...I do...unrighteousness and cashing in on patients is from the lowest forms of life and violates hyprocatic oath concepts. Puts your death of having cancers with a cashin price tag and you get to die anyway, in many cases (what a great ride that is) enrich others, lose your house, life savings and dignity along with this process, maybe only in America?

The average cancer patient in the USA has a price value of around $500 thousand (1/2 million dollars), yeah that is sustainable and medicare or government would love to pay all that out in the future. (LOL)
-------------------------------------------------NOW
Other side of the coin on estrogenic drugs, fair and balanced:
1) works on hrpca unlike LHRH or casodex can do
2) may even improve bone density, does not rob it
3) may improve memory, does not rob it
4) patients have some risk of gynecomastia (happens in casodex and other drugs too)..can be counteracted with another drug addition or electron rays to boobs)
5) DES-cost is unbelievably low, no patents any more, in USA you get a man made equivalent compounded drug, some say it is veterinary grade (bark-bark), FDA approves its sale, works in patients, nobody has a tail growing (that is scientific results)
6) DES found safe in 1-mg useage, I can tell you that you can even used 1/2-mg useage and usually get results, have a friend whom proved such to his doc
7) was used for decades and many people got very good results (let's overlook that a few got blood clots etc?)- when given 5-mg and no aspirin or blood thinner
8) these cause direct apoptosis of PCa cells
So, there is hope in this dope (examples exist)
9) myself no side effects, except the breast tenderness and that is intermittent, 4-5 yrs. useage
10) If it were junk, we have to call Dr. Premoli, Dr. Fred Lee and a leader at UsToo.org and inform them of there vast errors and they shouldn't be getting the responses they have witnessed...Have fun convincing them of all the negatives. Dr. Lee is still alive with 25 yrs. of known mets using (emcyt)..what would he know about PCa?
11) estrodial patches or gel may have even much lower risk factors to analyze if one is paranoid
12) your doc would assess your risk factors before even putting you on such, additionally an INR or Pro-time blood testing is done to know clotting factors, usually coumadin is precribed based upon those factors as to your doseage to take along with it.
13) this is an unlucky number...so nothing to say!:-)

I originally stated these are a choice to consider, sure glad I considered it, quality of life and control have been much achieved and saved the medical system (insurance co.) a small fortune too (no thank note yet)!

I understand why more people don't post things and especially controversial things. You have to defend everyword, prove all your points, know plenty besides your own experiences and enjoy debates or being regarded as weird, stupid, or going against the grain.
All this while in a support group scenario...sometimes we love the support? I got used to the slings and arrows awhile back...every once in awhile someone thanks an idiot like me for mentioning such and actually has new results and are very pleased...that is the reward side of the equation. Made no money in that process and not looking for acolades either, maybe a new friend (value is???).

Re: A case to be made for estrogenic drugs in PCa therapy choices (links too)

Gidday Bob, I can understand your angst at the cost of medication in the USA, makes me grateful for the Pharmaceutical Benefits System we have here in Australia whereby most life saving/important drugs are subsidised so all may access them.

..................NOW as to your points

1.no comment
2.may even? therefore also may not.
3.as above
4.no comment
5.no comment except for quality control and dosage
6.anecdotal evidence only.One mans food is anothers poison.
7.overlook? you must be kidding, in the past it was used for regulation of the menstrual cycle and to prevent premature labor, it has been implicated in certain types of cancer e.g., cervical cancer in daughters of mothers who were given DES during pregnancy.Studies have shown that exposure to estrogenic compounds is probably a significant causal factor in the increased incidence of breast cancer and the steep decline in male sperm production.
8. very interesting I would like to know more, can you point me in the direction of any studies or trials?
9.see point 6
10.logical fallacy, "appeal to authority" a peer reviewed published study would be prefered. Dr lee also had EBRT. Ian Gawler has survived 35 years with bone cancer on a biodynamic diet and a meeting with the Dalai Lama? I know it is not pc but just as relevant.
11.no comment
12.no comment
13. not superstitious

Do not take ANY of this personaly,an enquiring mind will always DEMAND facts and evidence before making any MAJOR decision, particularly when faced with life threatening danger.
I can understand the cost factor has majored in your decision, that does not thankfully apply in Oz "The average cancer patient in the USA has a price value of around $500 thousand"
My own costs have run up a bill of $15,000, because I went private, had I chosen the public system it would have been much much lower, in the private system I get to choose my Urologist and Oncologist.

Re: A case to be made for estrogenic drugs in PCa therapy choices (links too)

Warwick thanks for ruining my otherwise wonderful life using this drug (maybe I have to overlook my results), I have done both ADT3 and this stuff...personally no one seems interested in patient results and their journey with anything... I guess we better call Dr. Lee on his results too, tell him , what were you thinking (idioso), or start a lawsuit against Dr. Premoli for treating all those patients with estradiol patches (es stupido), wonderful. I am glad you are not my doctor, love you otherwise as PCa patient and studier on such. Maybe Terry should just remove the whole thread....apparently it is totally unworthy. Why look at what someone else has done with some successes, the docs know it all in PCa. Let's have a thread on the virtues of Lupron and worship all of its effects only in positive lights. That is what the pharma companies are hoping. Gooday, maybe I will listen to music now by Colin Hay (Who Can It Be Now, DownUnder, Overkill)...I do like Men at Work songs,(fyi). (No Flame zone...maybe a bic lighter was used, no harm to you Warwick, everyone should have a say, including myself).

Re: A case to be made for estrogenic drugs in PCa therapy choices (links too)

Whoa! Whoa! No more of this sniping.

Bth parties have vallid views. There are very few good scientific studies to support either.

I intend leaving this thread on the Forum because there are some interesting views expressed, but I am locking it to prevent any flaming.


All the best

Terry in Australia

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