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A case to be made for estrogenic drugs in PCa therapy choices (links too)
This is intended for anyone considering or doing hormone therapy type protocols within their PCa journey whom want alternatives. Contrary to perhaps your local docs advice or disliking these drugs are more effective than he may biasedly believe or doesn't want to get envolved with(no profits on these basically). Knowledge is power PCa brothers, look at everything and question everything (even question this, but read it all).
My own story using this for years herein at yananow:
www.yananow.net/Mentors/RobP.htm
Other evidences of value:
Dr. Fred Lee PCa specialist has PCa, uses emcyt(estrogenic drug) no lupron for him, been years on this drug of choice.
Dr. Ferdinand Premoli-Argentia using estradiol patches on many of his patients (no issues)
Leader of the PCa group at UsToo.org (Witchita) using estradiol gel for 5 yrs. (pleased with it)
This drug has been around since 1940 found very useful and the treatment for PCa back decades ago. Found very safe in 1-mg levels now, back then used 5-mg and no blood thinners..had some issues in the past.
Re: A case to be made for estrogenic drugs in PCa therapy choices (links too)
Your post was very timely.
My husband was Dx 11/07 with Gleason 8 PCa. He was on Lupron monotherapy for 2 years (last shot 8/09) and had 43 sessions of EBRT. For over 2 years his PSA was <0.1. In May, 2010, his PSA was 0.26 (testosterone 285), on 8/4/2010 his PSA had shot up to 0.63 (testosterone 304). We have an appointment with the urologist tomorrow morning. Although he doesn't yet meet the doctor's criteria for biochemical failure (3 successive rises in PSA), the doc also told us a year ago that he didn't want the PSA above 0.5.
We would like to investigate this therapy further. Hubby is still struggling with the cognitive problems from the Lupron and has had some decrease in BMD - a comparison of the side effects makes it sound very attractive if it becomes necessary for medical intervention again.
The articles you cited and linked were very informative. However they were all rather dated, being published 5-7 years ago.
Is there any more recent research?
Unfortunately, I loaned most of my PCa reference books to a newly diagnosed friend. The only one remaining on my shelf is Dr. Strum's 'Primer on Prostate Cancer' - I'll be studying the section on DES this evening.
Re: A case to be made for estrogenic drugs in PCa therapy choices (links too)
Yes Dr. Snuffy Myers has web video session on this kind of subject matter, google search and find the the recent web info. This drug is 60 yrs. old in useage, has been used all along by some patients throughout the world...just because the info seems old..doesn't mean it is dated. There is no money to be made on these and your loveable doc might flush it all down the toliet say I don't use these..many have that attitude. Your options are to fire the doc and find others...or find other drug options and many exist and still some docs won't prescribe even some of those that are used, but are used widely by leading oncos like: Strum, Scholz, Lam, Vogelzang, Myers, Leibowitz etc. So, who's your daddy? What kind of onco doc do you have, open minded or more like the Seinfeld t.v. show Soup N_z_? type! I see alot of the my way or the highway docs scenarios...which is very saddening to see the bias, and agenda's in some. Or the lack of offering any list of choices that all patient actually have...and many have found and some are doing...with results.
On of the longest living mets patients is a doctor and his drug of choice to live with PCa is emcyt (an estrogenic), that is Dr. Fred Lee now 80 yrs. old, he still practices color doppler ultrasonography (expert in such), his practice is open 2 days a week here in Michigan. He has 25 yrs. with known mets, google search and read his story...Dr. Fred Lee prostate cancer story (www.rochesterurology....?)
The leader of UsToo.org (Wichita) has 5 yrs. using estradiol with fab results, maybe drop him an email.
I hope you can find answers, myself not afraid to challenge system, did you read my yananow experiences?
www.hrpca.org has more info on 2nd line therapies too
The reason you don't see more studies and abstracts, is who is going to fund this, no profits to be made, no patents on compounded made DES, no incentives, the system is highly profittable on LHRH drugs, Leukine, Provenge, zometa, chemo protocols.
Your cheapest drug is DES ($125-300 per year), others would be Ketoconazole, estradiol, emcyt, proscar, tamoxifen and some others that are useful in PCa.
Re: A case to be made for estrogenic drugs in PCa therapy choices (links too)
Yes, Bob, I read, then printed your page from yananow & gave it to hubby - he was quite impressed. I guess today we'll get a hint of what kind of doc he has ... we've already fired one - the first :) I'll try to get to the Myers video before we leave this morning. And yes, I'll be in touch with Chuck as well. Thanks.
Re: A case to be made for estrogenic drugs in PCa therapy choices (links too)
Hey got to congratulate you on being fired up and getting proactive all to your hubbies best interest too, that is exactly what started my fire under my blank with a death sentence. I knew Donna Pogliano co-author of Dr.Strums book on internet forums, she was fabulous to talk to and she knew I was trying help people back in 2002-2003..and so guess what? I am on the inside cover of Dr. Strums book as an endorser with photo and my comments on the book. Got my signed copies by her and doctor Strum...I call it my PCa little Bible, the gospel on PCa. I sometimes quote or preach from this Bible even today. Speak the gospel and sometimes use words... I hope it receives an update or fancies another book. Oh btw, Terry H. is on the back cover with an endorsement on the same and knew these people too.
Re: A case to be made for estrogenic drugs in PCa therapy choices (links too)
I don't think there is much chance of Dr Strum updating the book (read about the genesis of the book hereA Primer on Prostate Cancer , if you haven't seen it previously.) Donna Pgliano has 'retired' from her prostate cancer activities and Dr Strum has just announced that the he will no longer be giving advice on the P2P list. A great pity. He says:
I have decided this for a few reasons.
1. There is not that much activity on P2P and not having to worry about the occasional posting will decrease my stress level.
2. There is major problems with doctors around the world doing anything outside their own sphere of experience. Even inviting them to call or email me has rarely been helpful. I end up educating patients who become frustrated with what they cannot get from their own local physician. Collaboration & collegiality in the world of medicine is thus rapidly becoming a thing of the past, assuming it was once more common than it is today.
3. Eye strain from any additional work on the computer needs to be avoided by me in light of recent retinal problems.
4. About 20 other reasons that relate to my using my "free" time differently.
Oh, and Bob, did you check page 187 of your copy of the book? :-))
Regarding the variance in the disease, I've been meaning to post a link to the recent study looking at the genomes involved with prostate cancer. From memory, they identified 24 variants, only one of which was very dangerously aggressive with 15 being indolent and the remainder graded at varying degrees of aggressiveness. It is early days of course, but it will be great if this can be developed further.
Re: A case to be made for estrogenic drugs in PCa therapy choices (links too)
Now the p187 thing in Strums book, I see your name posted there along with some others(so contributors to information pool) some people I recognize from the past. Is there something else I should get out of that?
I have been wondering if local pathologists, less than real experts, can they identify these 24+ variants or is it really a crapshoot. Since non-experts have issues grading gleason scores and some other more basic pathology things...my own thoughts lead me to think that, people could easily be non-identified with a variant. Most people don't get ploidy analyzed but most get ct and bone scans, that are many times not needed or kind of useless in total definity. Good for ruling in mets, not that good for claiming clear scans=no PCa cells anywhere, as Dr. Strum even mentions and Dr. Barken. Anyway patients to look at everything and question everything, including what the doc is recommending.
With all the potential of estrogenic drug treatment for pc, the side effects must be considered.
The use of estrogen therapy carries the increased risk of problems with blood clotting. Those opting to undergo estrogen must weight these risks. Estrogen may cause clots in the legs, heart attacks, strokes and other vascular accidents. Those with blood vessel diseases, blood clotting disorders, diabetes, high blood pressure, high levels of calcium in the blood, and liver disease and want to consider estrogen to treat prostate cancer, must speak with their doctors about the possible risks.
Other possible side effects of estrogen therapy in men include:
Breast enlargement and tenderness as well as nipple tenderness (gynecomastia)
Sudden chest pain
Shortness of breath
Nausea and vomiting
Sudden pain in the arms, legs, or groin
Severe headaches
Severe stomach pain
Edema (swelling due to water retention in the hands, feet, and ankles)
Sudden vision or speech problems
Yellowing of the skin or eyes (jaundice)
It seems there is no free ride whichever way one goes
Re: A case to be made for estrogenic drugs in PCa therapy choices (links too)
a study on Zolodex versus Stillboestrol.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1386272
A quote from previous message "Your cheapest drug is DES ($125-300 per year), others would be Ketoconazole, estradiol, emcyt, proscar, tamoxifen and some others that are useful in PCa." unquote.
Re: A case to be made for estrogenic drugs in PCa therapy choices (links too)
Warwick pointed out all the negatives a case can be made against of our drug choices in PCa, the Journal of Urology article from 2003 I showed the link, says in general that 1-mg was found safe to use if you wanted to actually read this. Still some caution sure, choices of estrogenics exist with some minor differences to read about too. Talk to some people whom have done such is always a good idea or docs that have used such in some patients.
Hey, I hope you don't believe that Lupron and other LHRH are health food in comparison (lol). The bone density loss is a wonderful side effect, that long term use could lead to skelatal issues and of course memory loss and all the other wonders we know about. Not saying never use LHRH, I did my 2 yrs. of ADT3 combo....and having done both...know some huge differences. I have about zero side effects now, little bit of breast tenderness. We have alot of other drug choices in PCa, there is no one size fits all. Results is the key, I also got better results on $125 protocol over the $13000 protocol (ADT3).
Re: A case to be made for estrogenic drugs in PCa therapy choices (links too)
thanks Bob for your speedy reply, the "negatives" as you put it, are the flip side of the coin, when looking for a "drug of choice" I'm sure you would agree, one must be informed of ALL the consequences.
The cost to you of ADT3 does not thanfully apply here in Australia, Zoladex at $133 per annum is eminently affordable, in my own case I will only need a short term, max 12 months, on it.
When looking for a treatment it is well to compare as you have done, it was with curiousity that I looked for published evidence of any trials that did a comparison analysis between estrogenic and Zoladex, the link which I have previously posted, being informed is necessary.
Re: A case to be made for estrogenic drugs in PCa therapy choices (links too)
What a deal on LHRH, we Americans are literally raped by the drug companies when patents exist. Our prices on Leukine, Zometa, chemo's, LHRH's, casodex (cash-o-dex), and some other heavy duty combo protocols in therapies are just slightly being molested, no raped. (HA-Ha). Nobody seems to question it much...I do...unrighteousness and cashing in on patients is from the lowest forms of life and violates hyprocatic oath concepts. Puts your death of having cancers with a cashin price tag and you get to die anyway, in many cases (what a great ride that is) enrich others, lose your house, life savings and dignity along with this process, maybe only in America?
The average cancer patient in the USA has a price value of around $500 thousand (1/2 million dollars), yeah that is sustainable and medicare or government would love to pay all that out in the future. (LOL)
-------------------------------------------------NOW
Other side of the coin on estrogenic drugs, fair and balanced:
1) works on hrpca unlike LHRH or casodex can do
2) may even improve bone density, does not rob it
3) may improve memory, does not rob it
4) patients have some risk of gynecomastia (happens in casodex and other drugs too)..can be counteracted with another drug addition or electron rays to boobs)
5) DES-cost is unbelievably low, no patents any more, in USA you get a man made equivalent compounded drug, some say it is veterinary grade (bark-bark), FDA approves its sale, works in patients, nobody has a tail growing (that is scientific results)
6) DES found safe in 1-mg useage, I can tell you that you can even used 1/2-mg useage and usually get results, have a friend whom proved such to his doc
7) was used for decades and many people got very good results (let's overlook that a few got blood clots etc?)- when given 5-mg and no aspirin or blood thinner
8) these cause direct apoptosis of PCa cells
So, there is hope in this dope (examples exist)
9) myself no side effects, except the breast tenderness and that is intermittent, 4-5 yrs. useage
10) If it were junk, we have to call Dr. Premoli, Dr. Fred Lee and a leader at UsToo.org and inform them of there vast errors and they shouldn't be getting the responses they have witnessed...Have fun convincing them of all the negatives. Dr. Lee is still alive with 25 yrs. of known mets using (emcyt)..what would he know about PCa?
11) estrodial patches or gel may have even much lower risk factors to analyze if one is paranoid
12) your doc would assess your risk factors before even putting you on such, additionally an INR or Pro-time blood testing is done to know clotting factors, usually coumadin is precribed based upon those factors as to your doseage to take along with it.
13) this is an unlucky number...so nothing to say!:-)
I originally stated these are a choice to consider, sure glad I considered it, quality of life and control have been much achieved and saved the medical system (insurance co.) a small fortune too (no thank note yet)!
I understand why more people don't post things and especially controversial things. You have to defend everyword, prove all your points, know plenty besides your own experiences and enjoy debates or being regarded as weird, stupid, or going against the grain.
All this while in a support group scenario...sometimes we love the support? I got used to the slings and arrows awhile back...every once in awhile someone thanks an idiot like me for mentioning such and actually has new results and are very pleased...that is the reward side of the equation. Made no money in that process and not looking for acolades either, maybe a new friend (value is???).
Re: A case to be made for estrogenic drugs in PCa therapy choices (links too)
Gidday Bob, I can understand your angst at the cost of medication in the USA, makes me grateful for the Pharmaceutical Benefits System we have here in Australia whereby most life saving/important drugs are subsidised so all may access them.
..................NOW as to your points
1.no comment
2.may even? therefore also may not.
3.as above
4.no comment
5.no comment except for quality control and dosage
6.anecdotal evidence only.One mans food is anothers poison.
7.overlook? you must be kidding, in the past it was used for regulation of the menstrual cycle and to prevent premature labor, it has been implicated in certain types of cancer e.g., cervical cancer in daughters of mothers who were given DES during pregnancy.Studies have shown that exposure to estrogenic compounds is probably a significant causal factor in the increased incidence of breast cancer and the steep decline in male sperm production.
8. very interesting I would like to know more, can you point me in the direction of any studies or trials?
9.see point 6
10.logical fallacy, "appeal to authority" a peer reviewed published study would be prefered. Dr lee also had EBRT. Ian Gawler has survived 35 years with bone cancer on a biodynamic diet and a meeting with the Dalai Lama? I know it is not pc but just as relevant.
11.no comment
12.no comment
13. not superstitious
Do not take ANY of this personaly,an enquiring mind will always DEMAND facts and evidence before making any MAJOR decision, particularly when faced with life threatening danger.
I can understand the cost factor has majored in your decision, that does not thankfully apply in Oz "The average cancer patient in the USA has a price value of around $500 thousand"
My own costs have run up a bill of $15,000, because I went private, had I chosen the public system it would have been much much lower, in the private system I get to choose my Urologist and Oncologist.
Re: A case to be made for estrogenic drugs in PCa therapy choices (links too)
Warwick thanks for ruining my otherwise wonderful life using this drug (maybe I have to overlook my results), I have done both ADT3 and this stuff...personally no one seems interested in patient results and their journey with anything... I guess we better call Dr. Lee on his results too, tell him , what were you thinking (idioso), or start a lawsuit against Dr. Premoli for treating all those patients with estradiol patches (es stupido), wonderful. I am glad you are not my doctor, love you otherwise as PCa patient and studier on such. Maybe Terry should just remove the whole thread....apparently it is totally unworthy. Why look at what someone else has done with some successes, the docs know it all in PCa. Let's have a thread on the virtues of Lupron and worship all of its effects only in positive lights. That is what the pharma companies are hoping. Gooday, maybe I will listen to music now by Colin Hay (Who Can It Be Now, DownUnder, Overkill)...I do like Men at Work songs,(fyi). (No Flame zone...maybe a bic lighter was used, no harm to you Warwick, everyone should have a say, including myself).
