It looks like OS boats might be trapped on the K&A for a while. The last time a weir collapsed it took a year to repair according to the local paper.

Maybe we'll be allowed to escape up the Severn estuary.

A few years ago there was an account in Ownersnips of a journey from the K and A, up the Severn Estuary, by an O/S boat. It was expensive and took a lot of organising. A pilot was needed.
If boats really are captured by this weir collapse it might be simpler to use a low loader. Perhaps Allen could arrange a discount for a number of boats.
Let's hope that the job is able to be done quickly. BW excelled themselves with the Llangollen breach earlier this year and saved many holidays. Bless 'em.

Phil,

I know that the severn route would be problematic and require a pilot but the option of a crane and lorry would be costly too.

Unlike the Llangollen breach this one is a private structure so BW may not feel obliged to help out.

As things stand there will be a stoppage in place for lock work until mid March so they've got a while to ruminate.

Andy

Anyone got an idea of how much it would cost to get a boat lifted onto a lorry at Devizes, taken to Stocton top and off-loaded?

Hi Bill

Try ringing A.B. Tuckey on 01926 812134.

Regards

Allan

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Replying to:

Anyone got an idea of how much it would cost to get a boat lifted onto a lorry at Devizes, taken to Stocton top and off-loaded?

Whilst I stand to be corrected by Barry Tuckey, I would hazard a guess and say that you wouldn't get a lot of change out of £2,000.00 .............. or around £170.00 per twelfth share..........??

I found this on Google

http://www.nb-globetrotter.co.uk/default.asp?Display=92

I wonder how many more weirs are privately owned?

Assuming that Allen's information is correct, on a share basis, this seems to be an affordable way out of what could be a long drawn out problem.

Obviously all boat owners effected will have to make their own decision for thier boat in a democratic way.

Reading this,it seems that the weir collapse is at Theale,pretty well at the western end of the K&A. This should give ample cruising for those based at Devizes at present,but no chance of them moving out elsewhere,or others moving in.(By water anyway).

It seems that there may be some dispute between the riparian owner and BW as to whom is responsible for repairs,which would appear to be expensive.

Andy, you say that "Unlike the Llangollen breach this one is a private structure so BW may not feel obliged to help out".

I know little of these matters but would have thought that the owner of this weir would have an obligation to maintain it in good order so as not to impede navigation on the K & A. If the owners fail to effect a repair within a reasonable period of time surely any costs of moving OwnerShips vessels to a point where navigation is not impeded could possibly be charged to the owners of this weir?

How many OwnerShips vessels need to move off the K & A? I see that Steelaway is due to relocate to Fradley. If there are several boats involved the cost of a severn pilot could be shared among them.

Is the use of a pilot compulsory or advisory? Are navigation lights or VHF radio compulsory or advisory?

As I see it there are several fundamental requirements before a journey is undertaken between Bristol Docks and the relative safety of the Gloucester & Sharpness Canal.

1) Tide tables and tidal stream Charts.
2) Up to date large scale navigational charts.
3) A hand held GPS pre-programmed with the necessary waypoints for pinpoint accurate routing.
4) Marine band VHF radio.
5) Adequate Insurance for the passage
6) A minimum of 2 boats cruising in company
7) 2 way radios for communication between boats.

I would suggest that the passage should be undertaken in fair weather (wind less than force 4); in daylight with good visibility and at a time of neap tides and also with sufficient hours of daylight. January would not be a good time though February is often characterised by quite periods of weather. It would be necessary to cover the distance required in 2 stages. Bristol to Avonmouth and Avonmouth to Sharpness to gain maximum benefit from favourable tidal streams. Arrangements might be necessary for a safe and comfortable berth at Avonmouth Docks?

A magnetic compass would be of little use on board a steel narrow boat although a Silva type hand bearing compass would be useful for general headings. It is in this area that a GPS would come into its own as it would clearly indicate the course made good (CMG) at all times. Using the 'Goto' facility the deviation to the left or the right of a required track would be updated every few seconds. The beauty of the GPS is that the 'navigator' can plot the required course well before the planned trip by measuring waypoints off an Admiralty Chart and 'loading' them individually into the GPS.

The total cost of the necessary Admiralty Charts and the Tidal Stream Atlas for the River Severn would be minimal. Certainly less than £60. Armed with this necessary information I would be prepared to offer my services as river pilot for the tidal Avon and Severn.

Perhaps Howard Anguish would like to comment on this dilemma for owners currently on the K & A?

Although I have had tens of years experience navigating small vessels on tidal waters including the London River and the Thames Estuary, unlike Howard I still have no formal qualifications.

Alan

In reply to Alan (Hawksmoor's comments):

Firstly, although there might be a need to plan for the worst case, it is still a little early to get too concerned. BW will undoubdtedly be looking at all their options bearing in mind the unusual aspects of this breach in that the wier is owned by the riparian owner (the singer Kate Bush) and not them! It is possible that they may either repair it in time for the start of the season or more likely, follow recent precedents and set up a craning/trucking operation around the stoppage until repairs are carried out. I suspect that there will be a lot of pressure from K&A boaters for them to solve the problem quickly.

In the event, however, that the stoppage continues into the next season and that some Ownerships boats need to relocate I see the following options:-

1) Defer the move for a year or at least until the stoppage is cleared.
2)If not provided by BW, arrange for craneage around the obstruction and then proceed up the Thames from Reading/Oxford canal etc. It may be that Ownerships could assist in making these arrangements. Ideally craneage and truck costs could be shared among all those boats who need the service, not just Ownerships boats.
3) Go via the tidal Avon, and the Severn to Sharpness.

As outlined by Allan the passage up the Severn can be challenging and the use of a pilot is recommended although not compulsory for narrow boats.

If this is the preferred option, my advice would be to employ the services of a Severn pilot and if possible try to share the costs with several boats who might wish to make the passage at the same time.

With all respect to Alan, pilots are employed for their local knowledge and although it is perfectly possible to make this passage given reasonable experience, the cost incurred in buying that local knowledge will make it well worth the money for the extra peace of mind.

A further point to bear in mind is that this transit is likely to be made in the early spring and there may be delays due to weather which might make the normal Ownership style handover a little tricky to organise mod way through the trip so a degree of flexibility would be required by those partaking.

HTH

Howard Anguish

Alan,
I'm not so sure about the obligation to maintain the weir on the basis that any obligation may have lapsed when the K&A closed. Whether such an obligation could be resurrected with the subsequent re-opening of the canal I am not sure. If that was the case you would think that the owner would take out insurance or release another CD in time for Christmas.

Burghfield Lock (just to the east of the failed weir is closed until March 16th for replacement gates. Their is another stoppage just to the east of the summit so there is no chance of getting to the weir before the 20th March.

I believe that Steelaway and Cropredy would like to escape the midlands. The Severn is a possibility until you remember that we don't have a reliable engine. Three seperate owners experienced the engine overheating last year. Hopefully the enlarged skin tank due to be fitted about now will cure that particular problem but I don't fancy going out on the Severn unless I can be confident the overheating has been cured.

There is a description of the journey in Narrow dog to Carcasonne. They used the trip as a warm up for crossing the channel

Hi Andy.

I was wondering where I had read about the Bristol to Sharpness transit. I have Terry Darlington's book 'Narrow Dog To Carcassonne' where this description can be found commencing on page 53. Interestingly the narrow boat Phyllis May completed the trip on a very large September spring tide.

A leaflet that the writer picked up from the harbour office at Bristol warned "The Severn estuary has the largest tidal range in Europe,up to 14.8m at Avonmouth, with stream velocities up to 8 knots. Canal and river craft are strongly advised to avoid spring tides. If your engine fails you will be carried along by the tidal stream with little or no control of your boat. In severe cases craft can be literally rolled over and over on the sandbanks".

My biggest concern when navigating the London river, 30 years ago, both in the dark and in poor visibility was the risk of collision with the rafts of Thames lighters on mooring buoys. Due to the shape of the ends of these lighters small vessels had been known to be carried underneath by the strength of the tidal stream. Extreme vigilance was necessary to avoid collision when up to 8 or more of these lighters were moored abreast of each other.

Having read descriptions of navigational problems on the river Ouse at Selby, I think I would rather be on the tidal Thames or Severn on springs or neaps!

Alan

There's an account of a trip the other way (Sharpness to Bristol) by narrowboat here:

http://www.keeping-up.co.uk/Canals/2004Bristol/2004Bristolhome.htm

including some great photos of the Severn bridges.

It sounds scary and fun at the same time!

I have now read several accounts of the passage up the tidal Severn and taken note of Howard's timely warning to plan for the worst scenario.
I think that I would have a dinghy on the roof ready to float off as necessary and wear a life jacket (not a bouyancy aid), a wet-suit, a crash-hat and a nappy.

Phil,

Have you gone soft or is the nappy for a prostate problem? I think you've watched the African Queen once too often.

Andy

I agree with Howard on waiting to see what happens to the weir.

Odyssey did the trip about ten years ago. We were all concerned about the insurance requirements, which OS sorted out in time for the trip - the insurers made pilotage a mandatory requirement iirc.

But narrowboats are not made for sea passages, and the holiday-loss consequences of losing the boat are not really covered by any insurance scheme at the moment.

I remember the description of the passage: it required waiting alongside a dock at Portishead for the tide to drop and then to start the Severn leg, with a different pilot as it happened. Odyssey had to wait most of the day for this and fend off the wall as the tide dropped eleven feet during that time.

Well, they were prepared for the eleven feet drop, but were surprised when they had misread the papers. Actually it's an eleven METRE drop.

The boatlog says that as they hadn't filled with fuel since Honeystreet, they were relieved to reach Sharpness with the engine still going. I still get the heebiejeebies when I read that bit :-) And there are some pictures in the picture-log of happy people under the Severn Bridges not wearing lifejackets. More heebiejeebies. Sigh. Anyway they and the boat survived the experience, as have many others before and since.

But not an experience to be contemplated lightly. And certainly not with a pressure of a timetable to be met. Best to be prepared to wait in Bristol Floating Harbour for the ideal day - not cheap - fees say 60' boat costs £160 for 15 days in the Floating Harbour.

Howard says "With all respect to Alan, pilots are employed for their local knowledge and although it is perfectly possible to make this passage given reasonable experience, the cost incurred in buying that local knowledge will make it well worth the money for the extra peace of mind".

Having carried out a little more research I withdraw my offer of pilotage!

First of all the logistics are more complex than anticipated mainly due to the large tidal range in the Severn estuary which means in effect there is a very limited time 'window' available for the passage. (a) you must reach Sharpness Basin before high water to guarantee passage through the lock into the canal (b) you cannot leave Portishead until there is sufficient rise of tide to lock out.

With only 5 hours of 'flood' in total, there will probably be less than 3 hours to cover 20 miles or more from Portishead to Sharpness?

There is a 'Catch 22' situation with regard to neap tides as against springs. Spring tides will result in a fast and exciting passage, too exciting for the majority, neap tides make it more difficult for a slow vessel such as a narrow boat to arrive in good time at Sharpness?

I have looked at Reed's Nautical Almanac where it is confirmed that the tidal stream runs at up to 8 knots through 'The Shoots' in the region of the Severn Bridges. I was surprised to read that even on neap tides the tidal range is around 30 feet (42 feet on springs). This implies that even on neaps the tidal stream in this area will be around 6 knots or almost 7 mph! With rates of this order you really have to be spot on with your navigation to keep clear of the shallows.

I had also anticipated that insurance companies would make the use of a pilot mandatory before providing cover.

I think I will start a new thread on the slightly less problematic passage along the tidal Trent!

Alan

There is a posting on Canalboat forum today - 2nd Jan 2007 - which says that BW are hoping to finish the work and have the canal reopened by Easter (Easter Sunday is April 8th). I have looked on Waterscape stoppages but there is no confirmation there. It may be worth contacting the local BW office direct for an update.

HTH

Howard Anguish

Sorry - my last should read 3rd Jan

Howard

Howard,

I thought you had found another forum i wasn't aware of.

It will take a few days to get from Devizes to Theale especially if the weather is poor so that might tie in quite nicely with the Easter break.

Andy